We are chosen and we choose. It's a bit of a paradox, and kicked off a lot of Calvinism vs. Arminianism fights, back in the day. While it doesn't specifically use the word "choose" or "choice," it's clearly implied in Rev 3:20 (ESV): "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus won't force the door open. He knocks, and patiently waits for us to open the door.
Yes, I faintly alluded to those fights. My family heritage was Methodist, pre-"United" on one side and EUB on the other, so you can imagine. What I found here was not exactly what I was expecting to find, although I was well acquainted with the "endurance" theme from having read the NT many times while not "under the influence" (of any particular church tradition).
There is more work to do with this word study. I did what I had time for yesterday. My coverage of words meaning "choice" is not adequate. Rather, I keyed off of the word used in the one place in my "endurance" hit list where Jesus even mentioned "choice". That the lex search returned only 20 hits begs for a closer look.
Rev. 3:20 is quite an interesting case. It doesn't say what a lot of people have been told it says, and this can be seen to some degree simply by examining the context. (I was caught by surprise when I read about this in Wallace, having used the verse myself in presenting the gospel, and with success.)
Wallace, in his _Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics_, includes an insightful, detailed grammatical commentary on this verse. I looked for a way to excerpt the most important parts, but I think I need to include it all. My two Revelation commentaries, Mounce and Beale, are essentially in agreement with Wallace, and I won't quote them. Bottom line from all three: this passage is not addressed to new believers, but to sinful believers in urgent need of repentance.
Wallace, on Rev. 3:20:
One of the more significant and, at the same time, most misunderstood passages (at least in popular circles) involving πρός, is Rev 3:20. The text reads: Ἰδοὺ ἕστηκα ἑπὶ τὴν θύραν καὶ κρούω _ ἐάν τις ἁκούσῃ τῆς φωνῆς μου καὶ ἀνοίξῃ τὴν θύραν, καὶ εἰσελεύσομαι πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ δειπνήσω μετ’ αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς μετ’ ἐμοῦ (“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he [will dine] with me”). The crucial phrase for our purposes is “I will come in to him.” This text has often been taken as a text offering salvation to a lost sinner. Such a view is based on two assumptions: (1) that the Laodiceans, or at least some of them, were indeed lost, and (2) that εἰσελεύσομαι πρός means “come into.”
Both of these assumptions, however, are based on little evidence. With reference to the first assumption, that those in the Laodicean church were not believers, it is important to note that in the preceding verse, the resurrected Lord declares, “Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline.” Here φιλέω is used for “love”—a term that is never used of God/Jesus loving unbelievers in the NT. (Indeed, it would be impossible for God to have this kind of love for an unbeliever, for it routinely speaks of enjoyment and fellowship. ἀγαπάω, rather, is the verb used of God’s love for unbelievers [cf. John 3:16], for it frequently, if not normally, speaks of commitment and, when used with God/Jesus as the subject, the idea is often of an unconditional love.) This φιλέω must be applied to the Laodiceans here, for the verse concludes, “Be zealous, therefore, and repent.” The inferential οὖν connects the two parts of the verse, indicating that the Laodiceans are to repent because Christ loves (φιλέω) them!
The second assumption is that εἰσελεύσομαι πρός means “come into.” Such an assumption is based on a less than careful reading of the English text! The ASV, NASB, RSV, NRSV, for example, all correctly render it “come in to.” (Note the space between the prepositions.) The idea of “come into” would be expressed with εἰς as the independent preposition and would suggest a penetration into the person (thus, spawning the idea of entering into one’s heart). However, spatially πρός means toward, not into. In all eight instances of εἰσέρχομαι πρός in the NT, the meaning is “come in toward/before a person” (i.e., enter a building, house, etc., so as to be in the presence of someone), never penetration into the person himself/herself. In some instances, such a view would not only be absurd, but inappropriate (cf. Mark 6:25; 15:43; Luke 1:28; Acts 10:3; 11:3; 16:40; 17:2; 28:8).
What, then, can we say that this verse is affirming? First, we should answer in the negative: it is not an offering of salvation. The implications of this are manifold. Among other things, to use this text as a salvation verse is a perversion of the simplicity of the gospel. Many people have allegedly “received Christ into their hearts” without understanding what that means or what the gospel means. Although this verse is picturesque, it actually muddies the waters of the truth of salvation. Reception of Christ is a consequence, not a condition, of salvation. As far as the positive meaning of this verse, it may refer to Christ having supremacy in the assembly or even to an invitation (and, consequently, a reminder) to believers to share with him in the coming kingdom. But to determine which of these is correct is beyond the scope of grammar. All grammar can tell us here is which view is almost certainly not correct—namely, that which sees this as an offering of salvation.
Thank you so much for your long list of scriptures on this timely topic of choice. My favorite on this topic is in the Old Testament, Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." We are living in a time "as the days of Noah." We do have to choose who we are going to follow and serve in these last days before Jesus Christ comes back to reign in the Millennial Kingdom here on earth. May God help us is my prayer to "choose the right."
That went through my head while writing, but didn't quite make it to the draft. I could have written so much more, but I wanted to keep a narrow focus. You should here the rambling discussions we have about this in 60+ Sunday School class. On second thought, you shouldn't.
The Greek root search is interesting. It found lots of things I tend to forget about. Each hit has to be visually confirmed -- that's the nature of roots -- but many of them were applicable.
There has to be something for you closer than California. This place should have warning signs posted at all the entrances. Our church's top pastoral positions are open, and the search committee is "paused". Nobody wants to come here, and we're not the only local church with this problem. I'll keep you in mind, should we need to leave in a hurry.
My parents were married somewhere in Missouri, although it's a mystery why. We have relatives there, and I think that must have had something to do with it. Some of those connections are outright family mysteries too.
My fourth grade and half of fifth were in St. Louis (Rock Hill). Not as beautiful there, living on Rock Hill Road, with a quarry to our west. From there we moved to Sacramento County, a few miles north of where I live now. It was different then.
Oh, yes. I go to church about seven miles from where I live. I help in our primary classes so I can't attend our adult classes. I don't really mind as I love being with the children who are so innocent and precious. It just sounded so interesting to hear of your church and for some reason we have a congregation of very young adults with very young children. I am an old woman in comparison with all of them. I live outside of Kansas City in a small touristy town near the Missouri River. We have an excellent school system that two of my grandchildren attend. I went to their Veteran's Day Assembly this week and was deeply impressed with the two hour program that was so professionally organized and the air of patriotism was so emotional and real. I am blessed to live in the center of the US.
We are chosen and we choose. It's a bit of a paradox, and kicked off a lot of Calvinism vs. Arminianism fights, back in the day. While it doesn't specifically use the word "choose" or "choice," it's clearly implied in Rev 3:20 (ESV): "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus won't force the door open. He knocks, and patiently waits for us to open the door.
https://simplechristianity.substack.com
Yes, I faintly alluded to those fights. My family heritage was Methodist, pre-"United" on one side and EUB on the other, so you can imagine. What I found here was not exactly what I was expecting to find, although I was well acquainted with the "endurance" theme from having read the NT many times while not "under the influence" (of any particular church tradition).
There is more work to do with this word study. I did what I had time for yesterday. My coverage of words meaning "choice" is not adequate. Rather, I keyed off of the word used in the one place in my "endurance" hit list where Jesus even mentioned "choice". That the lex search returned only 20 hits begs for a closer look.
Rev. 3:20 is quite an interesting case. It doesn't say what a lot of people have been told it says, and this can be seen to some degree simply by examining the context. (I was caught by surprise when I read about this in Wallace, having used the verse myself in presenting the gospel, and with success.)
Wallace, in his _Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics_, includes an insightful, detailed grammatical commentary on this verse. I looked for a way to excerpt the most important parts, but I think I need to include it all. My two Revelation commentaries, Mounce and Beale, are essentially in agreement with Wallace, and I won't quote them. Bottom line from all three: this passage is not addressed to new believers, but to sinful believers in urgent need of repentance.
Wallace, on Rev. 3:20:
One of the more significant and, at the same time, most misunderstood passages (at least in popular circles) involving πρός, is Rev 3:20. The text reads: Ἰδοὺ ἕστηκα ἑπὶ τὴν θύραν καὶ κρούω _ ἐάν τις ἁκούσῃ τῆς φωνῆς μου καὶ ἀνοίξῃ τὴν θύραν, καὶ εἰσελεύσομαι πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ δειπνήσω μετ’ αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς μετ’ ἐμοῦ (“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he [will dine] with me”). The crucial phrase for our purposes is “I will come in to him.” This text has often been taken as a text offering salvation to a lost sinner. Such a view is based on two assumptions: (1) that the Laodiceans, or at least some of them, were indeed lost, and (2) that εἰσελεύσομαι πρός means “come into.”
Both of these assumptions, however, are based on little evidence. With reference to the first assumption, that those in the Laodicean church were not believers, it is important to note that in the preceding verse, the resurrected Lord declares, “Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline.” Here φιλέω is used for “love”—a term that is never used of God/Jesus loving unbelievers in the NT. (Indeed, it would be impossible for God to have this kind of love for an unbeliever, for it routinely speaks of enjoyment and fellowship. ἀγαπάω, rather, is the verb used of God’s love for unbelievers [cf. John 3:16], for it frequently, if not normally, speaks of commitment and, when used with God/Jesus as the subject, the idea is often of an unconditional love.) This φιλέω must be applied to the Laodiceans here, for the verse concludes, “Be zealous, therefore, and repent.” The inferential οὖν connects the two parts of the verse, indicating that the Laodiceans are to repent because Christ loves (φιλέω) them!
The second assumption is that εἰσελεύσομαι πρός means “come into.” Such an assumption is based on a less than careful reading of the English text! The ASV, NASB, RSV, NRSV, for example, all correctly render it “come in to.” (Note the space between the prepositions.) The idea of “come into” would be expressed with εἰς as the independent preposition and would suggest a penetration into the person (thus, spawning the idea of entering into one’s heart). However, spatially πρός means toward, not into. In all eight instances of εἰσέρχομαι πρός in the NT, the meaning is “come in toward/before a person” (i.e., enter a building, house, etc., so as to be in the presence of someone), never penetration into the person himself/herself. In some instances, such a view would not only be absurd, but inappropriate (cf. Mark 6:25; 15:43; Luke 1:28; Acts 10:3; 11:3; 16:40; 17:2; 28:8).
What, then, can we say that this verse is affirming? First, we should answer in the negative: it is not an offering of salvation. The implications of this are manifold. Among other things, to use this text as a salvation verse is a perversion of the simplicity of the gospel. Many people have allegedly “received Christ into their hearts” without understanding what that means or what the gospel means. Although this verse is picturesque, it actually muddies the waters of the truth of salvation. Reception of Christ is a consequence, not a condition, of salvation. As far as the positive meaning of this verse, it may refer to Christ having supremacy in the assembly or even to an invitation (and, consequently, a reminder) to believers to share with him in the coming kingdom. But to determine which of these is correct is beyond the scope of grammar. All grammar can tell us here is which view is almost certainly not correct—namely, that which sees this as an offering of salvation.
Thank you so much for your long list of scriptures on this timely topic of choice. My favorite on this topic is in the Old Testament, Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." We are living in a time "as the days of Noah." We do have to choose who we are going to follow and serve in these last days before Jesus Christ comes back to reign in the Millennial Kingdom here on earth. May God help us is my prayer to "choose the right."
That went through my head while writing, but didn't quite make it to the draft. I could have written so much more, but I wanted to keep a narrow focus. You should here the rambling discussions we have about this in 60+ Sunday School class. On second thought, you shouldn't.
The Greek root search is interesting. It found lots of things I tend to forget about. Each hit has to be visually confirmed -- that's the nature of roots -- but many of them were applicable.
Yes, I would enjoy visiting your Sunday school class to hear the discussions, but I am located in in the beautiful hills of Missouri.
There has to be something for you closer than California. This place should have warning signs posted at all the entrances. Our church's top pastoral positions are open, and the search committee is "paused". Nobody wants to come here, and we're not the only local church with this problem. I'll keep you in mind, should we need to leave in a hurry.
My parents were married somewhere in Missouri, although it's a mystery why. We have relatives there, and I think that must have had something to do with it. Some of those connections are outright family mysteries too.
My fourth grade and half of fifth were in St. Louis (Rock Hill). Not as beautiful there, living on Rock Hill Road, with a quarry to our west. From there we moved to Sacramento County, a few miles north of where I live now. It was different then.
Oh, yes. I go to church about seven miles from where I live. I help in our primary classes so I can't attend our adult classes. I don't really mind as I love being with the children who are so innocent and precious. It just sounded so interesting to hear of your church and for some reason we have a congregation of very young adults with very young children. I am an old woman in comparison with all of them. I live outside of Kansas City in a small touristy town near the Missouri River. We have an excellent school system that two of my grandchildren attend. I went to their Veteran's Day Assembly this week and was deeply impressed with the two hour program that was so professionally organized and the air of patriotism was so emotional and real. I am blessed to live in the center of the US.