I 100% feel the same way. In the earthly day to day sense, it's only by our steadfast faith and courageous moral resistance that we'll be saved, and very gradually. That's how it generally worked historically on both the individual and broader levels. If we continue to live in a stuporous, mindless wishy-washy existence, the evil won't go away, it will take us out; either in a sudden cataclysmic disaster, or by the death of a thousand cuts.
Yes. It can be challenging to translate from first-century linguistic and cultural context into something that reads clearly today. In my studies I sometimes work with commentaries that delve into the nuances, but these works can devote up to several pages to each verse! Bible translations are extreme condensations. They have to be.
So I would substitute "maturation" for "salvation" as the gradual process, and it comes through trials and testing. Translations will often substitute "perfection" for "maturation", which is semantically valid, but it can be confusing because of the way we tend to understand perfection. "Perfect" means "complete". We aren't finished yet; we're a work in progress.
Here are a couple of passages relating to the process. There certainly are others. Clearly, they speak of renewal and transformation that we cannot bring about for ourselves. The letter to Titus makes it clear who can. The phrase "God our Savior" (τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ) in Titus is interesting.
Rom. 12:1 (CSB) -- Therefore, brothers and sisters, in view of the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God; this is your true worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
Titus 3:4 (CSB) But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, 5 he saved us—not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy—through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6 He poured out his Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
My issue in telling people that someone is coming to save them is that people negate their personal responsibilities at any chance they can. This message gives permission for people to remain immature because someone is going to rescue them in the end. I’m not denying any Christian beliefs, I’m just talking psychologically.
We have to be the hero of our own story. We have to challenge ourselves to be better and do better. We have to be willing to stand up and fight against evil, not just act like a deer in headlights and “wait”.
If a person doesn’t understand their own physiology or psychology, how do they know they aren’t being manipulated? Why would they bother trying to understand anything if all they have to do is believe in Jesus and everything will be ok? Seems like a great story to keep the masses from growing up and taking charge of themselves. Just my thoughts.
Our Internet was down here for about a day, going down just after I wrote this post. I'm trying to catch up now, but sleep is starting to catch up with me. I think I can appreciate what you are saying, though. There is a lot that is up to us. There is this thing in some "believer" circles of living life however one sees fit while waiting for that heavenly "reward". That is not the narrow gate!
There is a Greek word, a verb, that appears I think five times in the NT that seems to describe what ought to happen. It is συνεργέω (synergēo) from which we get the noun "synergy". It means "to work together", although it's not a simple matter. BDAG defines it as "to engage in cooperative endeavor, work together with, assist, help". Here is an example:
James 2:21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;...
There's nothing simple about this passage. "Was working with" is the instance of συνεργέω, inflected here as συνήργει. It represents a very close working relationship, and I believe that is how things are meant to be, day to day. It involves trials and testing, and it involves maturing. Anything short of that is not the real thing.
I understand "coming to save us" in a very specific context. World events are taking a very nasty turn, and there are now multiple ways that we could end up annihilating ourselves. This is the same concern that Dr. Yeadon was expressing and yes, we do need to do something. But I don't personally believe that everything we can do will be enough. We need to be "working with" somebody that isn't limited the way we are, and isn't prone to making this worse while trying to make things better, as are we.
That "somebody" I understand to be God. And here language, of course, tends to break down. But let's keep it simple -- it's getting late and I would really like to be sleeping right now -- we need to be saved from destroying ourselves, and I expect that we will be. So it's a different issue from whatever people tend to mean when they talk about "being saved". It's an issue of all of us not being around much longer but for divine intervention.
I understand this as a whopper of a trial. As the course we are on becomes clearer and clearer, some people will begin to see more clearly what they need to do, and it isn't "try harder". It's "cry out for help", at last.
The looming destruction is prophesied, as is the eventual response, in which a great many are saved. We can't directly witness any of that today, thankfully, but we can see that something very strange is occurring, where the more truth that comes out, the more the global powers that be press on with their plans, unfazed. It's surreal. It's significant. It's a sign of things to come.
More recently I have been doing a deep-dive study in 1 Corinthians, working with a Greek-level commentary (Gardner). I just finished chapter 1 tonight (it took 2 or 3 weeks to get that far). The better English translations do a decent job, but the Greek is more explicit, and the OT allusions and cultural context are extremely important. At this point, after that study, I would say that most of our "work with" involves getting out of the way and letting God do things that we can't do. The Corinthians were getting in the way a lot.
The last five verses summarize chapter 1:
1Cor. 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose the things that the world considers insignificant and contemptible, what is regarded as nothing, to render useless the things that are, 29 so that no one can boast in the presence of God.
The three-part structure of vv. 27-8 is mirrored in other verses in this chapter, and appears to based upon this (CSB):
Jer. 9:23 “‘This is what the LORD says:
The wise person should not boast in his wisdom;
the strong should not boast in his strength;
the wealthy should not boast in his wealth.
24 But the one who boasts should boast in this:
that he understands and knows me—
that I am the LORD, showing faithful love,
justice, and righteousness on the earth,
for I delight in these things.
This is the LORD’s declaration.
Ultimately the chapter is about having nothing in us to boast about, even though the 1st century Roman Empire world valued highly wisdom, strength, and wealth. We have NOTHING to boast about; we are foolish, weak, and poor. That's good, because that's the kind of people God chooses.
1Cor. 1:30 But you are of him in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Thank you for your thoughtful response. You should never feel obligated to respond to someone’s comment in a time restricted manner. If you need rest, please do so. Take care of yourself first. We can wait!
If there’s one thing I have learned over these past few years, it’s that the English language has also been corrupted. Why else would a single word have 10 different definitions? Pure chaos and confusion. We do not have the appropriate words or sufficient understanding to describe our Creators absolute intelligence and magnificence. It is beyond our comprehension. We are so dumbed down as a species unfortunately. Obviously this was done intentionally over millennia by a negative/evil force.
I am not a scholar nor am I well educated. I am, however, “in tune” with my somatic experience/feelings and the wisdom our physical bodies have in connection with nature/consciousness/our ancestors/our Creator. These are the gifts from our Creator that connect us all. To deny/suppress your feelings, to poison your body and mind with chemicals and lies, to destroy nature is akin to turning your back on our Creator.
I do not put faith in man or man’s creations. I put faith in our Creator. That’s it. I’m not on the left or the right, I don’t subscribe to any religion, I don’t follow any ideology or ism. These are all man’s creations. Don’t get me wrong, I do appreciate all the dedicated work and wisdom that our ancestors have left for us. We have evolved in many wonderful ways!
I was gifted with a brain, a body and a soul/spirit. I will cherish them and use them as best I can to reach my fullest potential and purpose. Only our Creator knows what that is.
This is how I see it - The relationship I have with my brain, my body and my soul/spirit is a direct reflection of my relationship with our Creator. I am beyond grateful for what I’ve been given, no man or idea can take that from me. A man’s first priority should always be a healthy relationship with our Creator/ourselves.
Wow! I couldn't have said that any better myself! I feel the same way! I try and express gratitude everyday but sometimes it's hard and challenging and I fall short at times especially with what's going on in this world right now with these globalists trying to kill us all!
You're welcome. I can't add very much to that! I could try to clarify certain matters of language, but doing so might well be a fool's errand. I live now in a personal relationship with my Creator, but it is a quite difficult one, not a nice "doing good", "being a cheerful giver", and "waiting for my heavenly reward" kind of thing.
I work with and trust the Bible, but I have only been doing that intensively for about the last 6 of my 73 years, and much of that change came even more recently, in 2020-21 when I had more time to study, and to begin to learn Koinē Greek, and to research the ongoing demise of "the church".
I still belong to a local church, a reformed/evangelical one that I joined in 2021. I don't care much for "reformed" as a brand, and that's probably why I was led there. They had to leave their denomination last year because of the invasion of cultural Marxism within it. They found another one, joining a couple of other similar local churches in similar situations that had already made the move. I don't care much for denominations either, although as a board member of one church I became involved at the local and regional conference levels, and was treated to an inside view of a horrible mess as a regional conference delegate. It was shocking and I was gone a few months later. That was six years ago.
Belonging to a local congregation can be of considerable value, especially if one is aware of the limitations of such things, and of the major differences between such gatherings and the assemblies the Bible pictures. The decent churches today host small/medium/large groups that can be much more "biblical-looking", if they don't rely upon corrupt curricula from the "Bible study industry".
I find myself now leading a weekly on-campus small group, something I did not see coming. At least there we are to some degree able to talk about what is really going on in the world, and what it means. I also belong to a weekly large group, where it is more difficult to talk about such things, but still possible. As a "loner", such things might not be possible. We have each other's contact information, which will be important if the church leadership cowers again to the "authorities" in future closure demands.
Your description of relationship with the Creator more than hints at being "created in the image of God". It is a dynamic, ongoing, "work with" process.
Yes, eventually our Saviour Jesus Christ will need to come rescue humanity from Lucifer and his followers. IMHO it will be due to the inability to make decisions for ourselves and the near total destruction of our planet due to terrible wickedness against humanity who will refuse to worship Lucifer.
Yes to Jesus as our savior. I'm pretty cautious with my language when I am commenting elsewhere. I am not cautious that way in my personal conversations with people that have at least the background understanding, and where it is much easier to resolve misunderstanding. Working here in this online world is kind of tough.
We had a young guy here yesterday -- a young adult, very bright and conscientious -- doing the annual check on our heating and air conditioning system -- and I was able to put some things to him that clearly made him think. Others will have to pick up from there, and that is the way it often works. I've seen it.
In my weekday small group Bible study, which I have been temporarily (I hope) leading this summer, it's different. We speak the same language. 😊
My internet has been down for almost half a day. No estimate for being back up again. If I have to I’ll rig something to hook a keyboard and monitor to my cell phone! (Later today)
If I lived near you I would come to the Bible study. I live in a small touristy town outside of Kansas City, Missouri. I attend church in another small town a few miles away and help in the primary classes. There is nothing like being with the little ones. We are getting ready for our yearly program by learning the songs and keeping it fun for the kids. They are so innocent and precious that I feel blessed to be in their presence. They have a language of the love of Jesus Christ.
You would be welcome -- we are a very small group right now and could use a few more. My hopes of being the temporary leader have been dashed -- it's a "church rules" thing. Small group leaders for groups affiliated with the church (and this one also meets on campus) now need to be church members. I am one, but the other person is not and doesn't plan to be. I'm going to refrain from saying anything more, beyond that I plan to keep the group going, because I am pretty sure I would say something I shouldn't.
I've mentioned this before, somewhere, but I have a "second church" that serves to fill a gap between what I can find locally and what I need to stay sane in this dying world. I "attend" online, usually not live because of the time zone difference -- it's in Hawaii. You might pray for help in finding something like that. You're welcome to sample mine at jdfarag.org.
I say "find", but in truth I am led to these places. None is perfect, and this the second time I have been led to two at once, although the first second church filled a much, much larger gap in the teaching. I stay until I am led elsewhere. My current local church is "home" church #7 as an adult, and my 6th as a member. It would be nice if that number didn't go any higher, but I don't decide.
Two churches back, I assisted with 3rd to 5th grade Sunday school for a year, and led the 3rd grade small group breakout for the 2nd half of that time. I miss it terribly, but the way evangelical large church Sunday school programs are typically run, I can't do it any longer, and I keep ending up at these large churches. It's a messy matter involving generational differences, and another one for which I'd best not say anything, at least not for now.
Our Internet came back up roughly 24 hours after it went down. It was a widespread outage.
I 100% feel the same way. In the earthly day to day sense, it's only by our steadfast faith and courageous moral resistance that we'll be saved, and very gradually. That's how it generally worked historically on both the individual and broader levels. If we continue to live in a stuporous, mindless wishy-washy existence, the evil won't go away, it will take us out; either in a sudden cataclysmic disaster, or by the death of a thousand cuts.
Yes. It can be challenging to translate from first-century linguistic and cultural context into something that reads clearly today. In my studies I sometimes work with commentaries that delve into the nuances, but these works can devote up to several pages to each verse! Bible translations are extreme condensations. They have to be.
So I would substitute "maturation" for "salvation" as the gradual process, and it comes through trials and testing. Translations will often substitute "perfection" for "maturation", which is semantically valid, but it can be confusing because of the way we tend to understand perfection. "Perfect" means "complete". We aren't finished yet; we're a work in progress.
Here are a couple of passages relating to the process. There certainly are others. Clearly, they speak of renewal and transformation that we cannot bring about for ourselves. The letter to Titus makes it clear who can. The phrase "God our Savior" (τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ) in Titus is interesting.
Rom. 12:1 (CSB) -- Therefore, brothers and sisters, in view of the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God; this is your true worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
Titus 3:4 (CSB) But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, 5 he saved us—not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy—through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6 He poured out his Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
My issue in telling people that someone is coming to save them is that people negate their personal responsibilities at any chance they can. This message gives permission for people to remain immature because someone is going to rescue them in the end. I’m not denying any Christian beliefs, I’m just talking psychologically.
We have to be the hero of our own story. We have to challenge ourselves to be better and do better. We have to be willing to stand up and fight against evil, not just act like a deer in headlights and “wait”.
If a person doesn’t understand their own physiology or psychology, how do they know they aren’t being manipulated? Why would they bother trying to understand anything if all they have to do is believe in Jesus and everything will be ok? Seems like a great story to keep the masses from growing up and taking charge of themselves. Just my thoughts.
Our Internet was down here for about a day, going down just after I wrote this post. I'm trying to catch up now, but sleep is starting to catch up with me. I think I can appreciate what you are saying, though. There is a lot that is up to us. There is this thing in some "believer" circles of living life however one sees fit while waiting for that heavenly "reward". That is not the narrow gate!
There is a Greek word, a verb, that appears I think five times in the NT that seems to describe what ought to happen. It is συνεργέω (synergēo) from which we get the noun "synergy". It means "to work together", although it's not a simple matter. BDAG defines it as "to engage in cooperative endeavor, work together with, assist, help". Here is an example:
James 2:21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;...
There's nothing simple about this passage. "Was working with" is the instance of συνεργέω, inflected here as συνήργει. It represents a very close working relationship, and I believe that is how things are meant to be, day to day. It involves trials and testing, and it involves maturing. Anything short of that is not the real thing.
I understand "coming to save us" in a very specific context. World events are taking a very nasty turn, and there are now multiple ways that we could end up annihilating ourselves. This is the same concern that Dr. Yeadon was expressing and yes, we do need to do something. But I don't personally believe that everything we can do will be enough. We need to be "working with" somebody that isn't limited the way we are, and isn't prone to making this worse while trying to make things better, as are we.
That "somebody" I understand to be God. And here language, of course, tends to break down. But let's keep it simple -- it's getting late and I would really like to be sleeping right now -- we need to be saved from destroying ourselves, and I expect that we will be. So it's a different issue from whatever people tend to mean when they talk about "being saved". It's an issue of all of us not being around much longer but for divine intervention.
I understand this as a whopper of a trial. As the course we are on becomes clearer and clearer, some people will begin to see more clearly what they need to do, and it isn't "try harder". It's "cry out for help", at last.
The looming destruction is prophesied, as is the eventual response, in which a great many are saved. We can't directly witness any of that today, thankfully, but we can see that something very strange is occurring, where the more truth that comes out, the more the global powers that be press on with their plans, unfazed. It's surreal. It's significant. It's a sign of things to come.
Very well said! We have to work with our Most High Creator and listen to Him!
More recently I have been doing a deep-dive study in 1 Corinthians, working with a Greek-level commentary (Gardner). I just finished chapter 1 tonight (it took 2 or 3 weeks to get that far). The better English translations do a decent job, but the Greek is more explicit, and the OT allusions and cultural context are extremely important. At this point, after that study, I would say that most of our "work with" involves getting out of the way and letting God do things that we can't do. The Corinthians were getting in the way a lot.
The last five verses summarize chapter 1:
1Cor. 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose the things that the world considers insignificant and contemptible, what is regarded as nothing, to render useless the things that are, 29 so that no one can boast in the presence of God.
The three-part structure of vv. 27-8 is mirrored in other verses in this chapter, and appears to based upon this (CSB):
Jer. 9:23 “‘This is what the LORD says:
The wise person should not boast in his wisdom;
the strong should not boast in his strength;
the wealthy should not boast in his wealth.
24 But the one who boasts should boast in this:
that he understands and knows me—
that I am the LORD, showing faithful love,
justice, and righteousness on the earth,
for I delight in these things.
This is the LORD’s declaration.
Ultimately the chapter is about having nothing in us to boast about, even though the 1st century Roman Empire world valued highly wisdom, strength, and wealth. We have NOTHING to boast about; we are foolish, weak, and poor. That's good, because that's the kind of people God chooses.
1Cor. 1:30 But you are of him in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Thank you for your thoughtful response. You should never feel obligated to respond to someone’s comment in a time restricted manner. If you need rest, please do so. Take care of yourself first. We can wait!
If there’s one thing I have learned over these past few years, it’s that the English language has also been corrupted. Why else would a single word have 10 different definitions? Pure chaos and confusion. We do not have the appropriate words or sufficient understanding to describe our Creators absolute intelligence and magnificence. It is beyond our comprehension. We are so dumbed down as a species unfortunately. Obviously this was done intentionally over millennia by a negative/evil force.
I am not a scholar nor am I well educated. I am, however, “in tune” with my somatic experience/feelings and the wisdom our physical bodies have in connection with nature/consciousness/our ancestors/our Creator. These are the gifts from our Creator that connect us all. To deny/suppress your feelings, to poison your body and mind with chemicals and lies, to destroy nature is akin to turning your back on our Creator.
I do not put faith in man or man’s creations. I put faith in our Creator. That’s it. I’m not on the left or the right, I don’t subscribe to any religion, I don’t follow any ideology or ism. These are all man’s creations. Don’t get me wrong, I do appreciate all the dedicated work and wisdom that our ancestors have left for us. We have evolved in many wonderful ways!
I was gifted with a brain, a body and a soul/spirit. I will cherish them and use them as best I can to reach my fullest potential and purpose. Only our Creator knows what that is.
This is how I see it - The relationship I have with my brain, my body and my soul/spirit is a direct reflection of my relationship with our Creator. I am beyond grateful for what I’ve been given, no man or idea can take that from me. A man’s first priority should always be a healthy relationship with our Creator/ourselves.
Wow! I couldn't have said that any better myself! I feel the same way! I try and express gratitude everyday but sometimes it's hard and challenging and I fall short at times especially with what's going on in this world right now with these globalists trying to kill us all!
You're welcome. I can't add very much to that! I could try to clarify certain matters of language, but doing so might well be a fool's errand. I live now in a personal relationship with my Creator, but it is a quite difficult one, not a nice "doing good", "being a cheerful giver", and "waiting for my heavenly reward" kind of thing.
I work with and trust the Bible, but I have only been doing that intensively for about the last 6 of my 73 years, and much of that change came even more recently, in 2020-21 when I had more time to study, and to begin to learn Koinē Greek, and to research the ongoing demise of "the church".
I still belong to a local church, a reformed/evangelical one that I joined in 2021. I don't care much for "reformed" as a brand, and that's probably why I was led there. They had to leave their denomination last year because of the invasion of cultural Marxism within it. They found another one, joining a couple of other similar local churches in similar situations that had already made the move. I don't care much for denominations either, although as a board member of one church I became involved at the local and regional conference levels, and was treated to an inside view of a horrible mess as a regional conference delegate. It was shocking and I was gone a few months later. That was six years ago.
Belonging to a local congregation can be of considerable value, especially if one is aware of the limitations of such things, and of the major differences between such gatherings and the assemblies the Bible pictures. The decent churches today host small/medium/large groups that can be much more "biblical-looking", if they don't rely upon corrupt curricula from the "Bible study industry".
I find myself now leading a weekly on-campus small group, something I did not see coming. At least there we are to some degree able to talk about what is really going on in the world, and what it means. I also belong to a weekly large group, where it is more difficult to talk about such things, but still possible. As a "loner", such things might not be possible. We have each other's contact information, which will be important if the church leadership cowers again to the "authorities" in future closure demands.
Your description of relationship with the Creator more than hints at being "created in the image of God". It is a dynamic, ongoing, "work with" process.
Yes, eventually our Saviour Jesus Christ will need to come rescue humanity from Lucifer and his followers. IMHO it will be due to the inability to make decisions for ourselves and the near total destruction of our planet due to terrible wickedness against humanity who will refuse to worship Lucifer.
Yes to Jesus as our savior. I'm pretty cautious with my language when I am commenting elsewhere. I am not cautious that way in my personal conversations with people that have at least the background understanding, and where it is much easier to resolve misunderstanding. Working here in this online world is kind of tough.
We had a young guy here yesterday -- a young adult, very bright and conscientious -- doing the annual check on our heating and air conditioning system -- and I was able to put some things to him that clearly made him think. Others will have to pick up from there, and that is the way it often works. I've seen it.
In my weekday small group Bible study, which I have been temporarily (I hope) leading this summer, it's different. We speak the same language. 😊
My internet has been down for almost half a day. No estimate for being back up again. If I have to I’ll rig something to hook a keyboard and monitor to my cell phone! (Later today)
If I lived near you I would come to the Bible study. I live in a small touristy town outside of Kansas City, Missouri. I attend church in another small town a few miles away and help in the primary classes. There is nothing like being with the little ones. We are getting ready for our yearly program by learning the songs and keeping it fun for the kids. They are so innocent and precious that I feel blessed to be in their presence. They have a language of the love of Jesus Christ.
You would be welcome -- we are a very small group right now and could use a few more. My hopes of being the temporary leader have been dashed -- it's a "church rules" thing. Small group leaders for groups affiliated with the church (and this one also meets on campus) now need to be church members. I am one, but the other person is not and doesn't plan to be. I'm going to refrain from saying anything more, beyond that I plan to keep the group going, because I am pretty sure I would say something I shouldn't.
I've mentioned this before, somewhere, but I have a "second church" that serves to fill a gap between what I can find locally and what I need to stay sane in this dying world. I "attend" online, usually not live because of the time zone difference -- it's in Hawaii. You might pray for help in finding something like that. You're welcome to sample mine at jdfarag.org.
I say "find", but in truth I am led to these places. None is perfect, and this the second time I have been led to two at once, although the first second church filled a much, much larger gap in the teaching. I stay until I am led elsewhere. My current local church is "home" church #7 as an adult, and my 6th as a member. It would be nice if that number didn't go any higher, but I don't decide.
Two churches back, I assisted with 3rd to 5th grade Sunday school for a year, and led the 3rd grade small group breakout for the 2nd half of that time. I miss it terribly, but the way evangelical large church Sunday school programs are typically run, I can't do it any longer, and I keep ending up at these large churches. It's a messy matter involving generational differences, and another one for which I'd best not say anything, at least not for now.
Our Internet came back up roughly 24 hours after it went down. It was a widespread outage.